FROM Mr Nalgirkar, June 15
«The document , you are refering is not my personal document. It was issued in India in 2002 by the SY country leader on the advice of HH Shri Mataji and it is followed in the country even before 2002.
You may refer to your National Committe and decide what to do.
It is not imposed.»
«The document , you are refering is not my personal document. It was issued in India in 2002 by the SY country leader on the advice of HH Shri Mataji and it is followed in the country even before 2002.
You may refer to your National Committe and decide what to do.
It is not imposed.»
Swayamblogger understands
In 2002, Shri Mataji was perfectly in conditions to promote this ritual in the West. She did not.
National committees are free to organize their rituals as they wish.
In 2002, Shri Mataji was perfectly in conditions to promote this ritual in the West. She did not.
National committees are free to organize their rituals as they wish.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
SWAYAMBLOGGER'S SUGGESTIONS FOR CORRECTIONS (sent in May 2015)
A mail to Mr Nalgirkar <nalgirkar@hotmail.com>
followed by: FIRST FEED BACK from readers
Dear Brother,
That might be late, but your document about Havan is just now circulating among the French Sahajis. I prepared this letter 2 months ago, and did not send it.
But it so happened that during the National seminar in France, our havan, following your guidelines, was done under the shelter of our umbrellas. And in Cabella, the Saturday before the AdiShakti Puja, a sudden heavy storm put a premature end to the same ceremony.
Rain is weird, during havans, while "the nature is supporting you" Mother used to say.
I am sorry to write what follows, but, having joined Sahaj in 1982, and acted as pujari during 15 years in Colombia, I would like to make some remarks about three parts of your document, which need more precisions for the people, to use it properly.
Of course, I acknowledge your introduction, which refers humbly and spiritually to Shri Mataji. We are Sahaji -brothers no doubt.
My concern comes from the practical parts of the document, as many yogis, especially new people, new centers, and new countries, while starting the worship, will directly go to the performing of the Havan.
1/ First mantras
1-a Having assisted, and sometimes organised, Havans with Shri Mataji, She never asked any other mantras than 'Shri Agni-devata', and 'Swaha- swamini'. Also never asked for Ganesh Atharva sheersha.
1-b More important: I have witnessed in 2014 in Cabella a havan, and a young yuva shakti was spontaneously asked to lead it. Probably feeling too shy, she just sticked to the" letter" of your protocol. It so happened that no invocation to Shri Mataji was to be heard, but the repetition 3 times of (until yet) unknown Sanskrit mantras.
As you exactly write:
Mantras to open a havan (om twamewa sakshat, shri_________namo namah)
Shri Nava-graha devatā: You are... The deity of the nine planets
To me, those mantras are a novelty.
But more than anything, I do not read any part that we should add: "shri Adishakti Mataji, shri Nirmala Devi, namoh namaha".
Mother taught us that, if any: who are we to call the deities, without Her name?
1-c You state: NO OTHER 108 NAMES AT ANY TIME
(SHRI MATAJI’S 108 NAMES MOSTLY , ONLY SOME TIMES 108 NAMES OF MAHAKALI )
On this, I can not agree:
I was personally sent by Shri Mataji to say the 108 names of Shri Vishnu during a Shri Krishna Puja Seminar in Cabella.
I was attending the 1983 Guru puja seminar with the 1000 names of the Guru.
You will find here the 1000 names of Shri Ganesha: 1983 Jan 18, Havan in Nasik http://www.nirmalavidya.org/
en/catalogs/events/detail/867.html
You can also check on nirmalavidya website:
1983 Jan 07 Havan in Rahuri ; Jun 17 Havan in Paris 1983: 108 Names of Shri Lalita - 21 Names of Vishnu 1983 Aug 21 Havan for America 1983 1983 Aug 31 Havan for Shri Krishna's Birthday 1983 1983 Sep 10 Havan in Tivoli 1983 Havan Italy -1983 Oct 10 Havan for New Yogis in Canada.
These, and many more, were performed under the orders of Shri Mataji.
I strongly hope some corrections/ additions will be made on these points.
Of course, Divinities related to the right side should not be worshipped by a Havan. But all Ida-, and Satya-, guna-related deities are.
2/ List of Ingredients for Havana
I am surprised at the list of herbs, grains, etc. As you notice, many of them are difficult to find in South America, Uzbekistan or Iceland. You gently state that such havans is such deprived places would not be meaningless.
Shri Mataji, on Her part, had been asking for something much more simple.
Though: something is available everywhere on the planet that you do not mention:
Forgiveness.
Shri Mataji clearly advised, referring to a Shri Jesus-Christ, that, if you have a conflict with your brother, first forgive, and make peace with him, and only after, come to the Altar with your offerings.
Is it because of the funny relations between the different trusts in India that you forgot this point? (In many other countries as well, does the Divine accept our offerings, among such divisions and hatred, so obviously anti-sahaj? Who knows?)
I deeply hope this condition: forgiveness, would be added in the most clear form. (*)
I read: "You have to learn certain things about faith. One of them is the protocol. If you have faith while learning the protocol, you will not feel bad. But if you're forced into it [the protocol] while the 'mixture state' is still going on, you will feel bad about it." (Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi - " Becoming " -Old Alresford, England - 18 May 1980). http://www.nirmalavidya.org/en/catalogs/events/detail/362.html
3-a/ This quote is taken out of its context!
I refuse to believe that it were done on purpose.
The 80'es were years when Mother never referred to any rituals as such. On the contrary, Hindu brothers were the ones who proposed Her to perform pujas and use list of names, etc. She happily agreed with that, but always cercled them into certain limits. In this 1980 talk from which the quotation comes, the word "protocol" is related to the recognition of Shri Mataji, and the respect towards Her person, and photography, by people who did not hesitate in invading Her house, and in abusing Her money.
Those were the times.
She never meant protocol as rituals, but from the heart and recognition. I hope you will agree on this point. The proof: (**)
3-b/ The cutting of the quote has consequences.
This extract leads the reader to understand that, if he does not learn (how to follow) the (=your) protocol, he has no "real faith", and ends up being- feeling- "bad". What a threat!
- Let us be careful that the word "faith": in the West faith does not mean the same as Shraddha. It refers to "mister Paul", and the blind subservient faith of the Catholics. In a different way, in your quote, Mother refers to the faith in the fact that Realization fulfils our pure desire, in the reality, and comes from Her only -not the faith in rituals.
As an historian, trained in criticizing the texts and their interpretation, I deeply regret the way you use this quote. It sounds like a menace in the West. I hope also that this would be rectified.
Anyway, most of those rites are derived from Brahmanic rituals.
I came in Sahaj in 1982 for Atmaskashatkar, for a universal religion of the Self - and meditation. I have been really happy to learn about havans, pujas, and dedication to the Devi from Mother, (that is from Herself).
From Her teachings, advices and practices, I wrote a booklet about Pujas and havans in 1987, which has been widely spread and reproduced, in French as well as in Spanish, and had received no critics since.
Shri Mataji never taught Herself any of those novelties, I really mean: publicly. On the contrary: «... To think that you can have me attracted towards you by your protocols, which is dead, has no meaning..» (**) This is what I learned from Mother, that She opposed 'novelties'.
- Please do understand that I did not work hard during 30 years spreading Sahaj Yoga and VND to find it merged into Hindu rituals, which I see being accumulating year after year.
I really hope those concerns will find their way, and will enhance your vision. No use insisting on the fact that this letter carries also the surprises, disappointments, or distrusts, that are felt by many yogis and friends.
Maybe, those true devotees are just withdrawing themselves with sadness, silently, after witnessing Sahaj falling aprey to outdated ritualism.
Some just find their place at the end of the pandal and close their eyes, finding shelter in their known Samadhi. Too humble, too scared, or too tired, they never find any mean to carry their concern openly, and to voice it.
Maybe the Rain, of which I spoke in the beginning, is trying to teach us something.
Whatever, with all the due respect, and, once again, sahaj-brotherly love, let us end this letter with a big hug of our hearts.
-----------------------------------------------------
(*) «...Let Christ be born within us. Let's be, like Him, the one who always insisted, "Love your brothers. Love your sisters." Who are your brothers and sisters? He asked the question too, "Who are My brothers and sisters?" "Sahaja yogis are my brothers and sisters."
Somebody offered at the altar. He said, "What are you to offer at the altar? Have you reconciled with your brother?" Have you reconciled? First reconcile, and then bring flowers to Mother. He said it already.»
1984-1123: Shri Jesus Puja, Hounslow, UK http://www.nirmalavidya.org/en/catalogs/events/detail/1205.html
(**) « ...Nobody should think that they love Me more than anybody else.
Nobody should think like that. Some people know more rituals, some know more protocol, doesn't matter, but I know who loves me.
The one who loves others loves me the most.
I don't care your protocols and your ritualistic things, are nonsense for me. What does it matter to me? The one who loves others is the one who really loves me. Take it from me!
I've had all these rituals and all that, and I have no care for these things.
Makes no difference whether you say good morning to me or good evening to me, is not important. What you say to your brothers and sisters is the most important.
Sahaj Yoga will never work out, if you do not look after that side: how you behave towards your wife, towards your husband, towards your brothers and sisters. That is the most important thing. Anybody who tries to so play such tricks will get out of Sahaj Yoga. You know that I've thrown out very, so-called important people out of Sahaj Yoga. When they did like this to dominate others, by saying
"This is not good, you should not put your hand there or put your feet there or do this and that." Who can know the protocol of Divine Mother? You cannot bind Me into protocols. You cannot bind Me to anything I am unlimited.
I am detached. You cannot bind me to anything. To think that you can have me attracted towards you by your protocols, which is dead, has no meaning.
It has to be a living protocol of being kind and generous, beautiful.
Some are lethargic. [Say a husband wants the wife to work all the time. Wife wants the husband to every time. Everybody is finding faults with each other. They are not Sahaja Yogis. Sahaja Yogis are the people who take it Sahaj. »
1981-May 24: Subconscious Supraconcious, Formal Talk, Chelsham Rd, London http://www.nirmalavidya.org/en/catalogs/events/detail/543.html
-----------------------------------------------------------
Brother --- thank you very much for cleansing the clouds
of ignorance on Yagnyas of every kind. It is a shame that all
kinds of brahmanic and other rituals should be used in Sahaja
Yoga. Mother frequently warned us about such connections.
---------------------------------------------
Dear sisters,syg+shakti@
I would like to share with you this letter of an ancient French Sahaja Yoga about a different way, or a "new way" to do a havan which looks closer to an Hindu ritual than the Sahaja protocol that Shri Mataji taught us.
(It is a long letter but it is worth reading it.)
Nowadays, it seems that some Sahaja Yogis need to have new rules or just more rules; they might have the impression that it gives them more discipline. May be they want to be very respectful and add this thing, that thing, because simplicity can look like a lack of protocol for them.
We all know deep inside that Sahaj discipline comes from our subtle being and not from outside and that protocol is conduct by the heart. But sometimes, it is hard to see the difference, especially for the new people.
Please let me know what you feel about this way to conduct a havan.
Jai Shri Mataji
Lots of love,
------------Dear Shaktis,
I can't agree more with the letter of our dear brother Michel. It is very nicely written and it is supported by a solid evidence from Mother's talks. My next question though is why in the 7th edition of Mantra book page 292 we have these Hindu havan mantras?
Love,
-----------FROM AMERICA
Dear ***,
After reading your, and most! posts to shaktisangha for many year (but being unable to post for some reason), the letter from Michel below moved me to respond.
Please forward this email to him as I do not have his email id.
I would like to let him know that he has one more yogini who has the same understanding and appreciation that he has expressed in this letter. Only wishing that the same could be communicated, understood, and realized by Sahaja yogis worldwide.
Perhaps, this single note of affirmation carries little weight. If it can permeate throughout the ether into the enlightened attention of our brothers and sisters, our desire is fulfilled.
With great love and affection,
Jai Shri Mataji-!
Your sister in America,***
-------------FROM FRANCE
You made it perfectly CLEAR
....
Big hug,***
------------FROM France,
Merci - de soulever cette question ...
À noter aussi que nous n'avons plus le droit qu'à 2 havans par an à Holi et lors du Navaratri...
-------------FROM ENGLAND
Hello***!
Thank you for sharing the letter
…, whom I know since a long time.
I would say that on this point I totally agree with him: the old Sahaja Yogis have had first hand experience of the Teachings of Shri Mataji (also all recorded on tapes, DVDs etc...) which She gave very clearly with regards to performing Pujas and Havans and there is no need for anyone to 'add' or 'substract' to the rituals given by Her, which are very simple to follow and if carried on well, allow the vibrations to flow!
--------------------FROM France
PUT IT ON THE FORUM
...
A mail to Mr Nalgirkar <nalgirkar@hotmail.com>
followed by: FIRST FEED BACK from readers
 |
| leading a havan in Delhi, 1979 |
That might be late, but your document about Havan is just now circulating among the French Sahajis. I prepared this letter 2 months ago, and did not send it.
But it so happened that during the National seminar in France, our havan, following your guidelines, was done under the shelter of our umbrellas. And in Cabella, the Saturday before the AdiShakti Puja, a sudden heavy storm put a premature end to the same ceremony.
Rain is weird, during havans, while "the nature is supporting you" Mother used to say.
I am sorry to write what follows, but, having joined Sahaj in 1982, and acted as pujari during 15 years in Colombia, I would like to make some remarks about three parts of your document, which need more precisions for the people, to use it properly.
Of course, I acknowledge your introduction, which refers humbly and spiritually to Shri Mataji. We are Sahaji -brothers no doubt.
My concern comes from the practical parts of the document, as many yogis, especially new people, new centers, and new countries, while starting the worship, will directly go to the performing of the Havan.
1/ First mantras
1-a Having assisted, and sometimes organised, Havans with Shri Mataji, She never asked any other mantras than 'Shri Agni-devata', and 'Swaha- swamini'. Also never asked for Ganesh Atharva sheersha.
1-b More important: I have witnessed in 2014 in Cabella a havan, and a young yuva shakti was spontaneously asked to lead it. Probably feeling too shy, she just sticked to the" letter" of your protocol. It so happened that no invocation to Shri Mataji was to be heard, but the repetition 3 times of (until yet) unknown Sanskrit mantras.
As you exactly write:
Mantras to open a havan (om twamewa sakshat, shri_________namo namah)
Shri Nava-graha devatā: You are... The deity of the nine planets
To me, those mantras are a novelty.
But more than anything, I do not read any part that we should add: "shri Adishakti Mataji, shri Nirmala Devi, namoh namaha".
Mother taught us that, if any: who are we to call the deities, without Her name?
1-c You state: NO OTHER 108 NAMES AT ANY TIME
(SHRI MATAJI’S 108 NAMES MOSTLY , ONLY SOME TIMES 108 NAMES OF MAHAKALI )
On this, I can not agree:
I was personally sent by Shri Mataji to say the 108 names of Shri Vishnu during a Shri Krishna Puja Seminar in Cabella.
 |
| 1000 names of shri Adi Guru, 1983 |
You will find here the 1000 names of Shri Ganesha: 1983 Jan 18, Havan in Nasik http://www.nirmalavidya.org/
en/catalogs/events/detail/867.html
You can also check on nirmalavidya website:
1983 Jan 07 Havan in Rahuri ; Jun 17 Havan in Paris 1983: 108 Names of Shri Lalita - 21 Names of Vishnu 1983 Aug 21 Havan for America 1983 1983 Aug 31 Havan for Shri Krishna's Birthday 1983 1983 Sep 10 Havan in Tivoli 1983 Havan Italy -1983 Oct 10 Havan for New Yogis in Canada.
These, and many more, were performed under the orders of Shri Mataji.
I strongly hope some corrections/ additions will be made on these points.
Of course, Divinities related to the right side should not be worshipped by a Havan. But all Ida-, and Satya-, guna-related deities are.
- About negativities: The teaching of Shri Mataji is written here. No need to spread any other proceeding: http://www.nirmalavidya.org/en/catalogs/events/detail/990.html
2/ List of Ingredients for Havana
I am surprised at the list of herbs, grains, etc. As you notice, many of them are difficult to find in South America, Uzbekistan or Iceland. You gently state that such havans is such deprived places would not be meaningless.
Shri Mataji, on Her part, had been asking for something much more simple.
 |
| First havan in England, 1976 |
Forgiveness.
Shri Mataji clearly advised, referring to a Shri Jesus-Christ, that, if you have a conflict with your brother, first forgive, and make peace with him, and only after, come to the Altar with your offerings.
Is it because of the funny relations between the different trusts in India that you forgot this point? (In many other countries as well, does the Divine accept our offerings, among such divisions and hatred, so obviously anti-sahaj? Who knows?)
I deeply hope this condition: forgiveness, would be added in the most clear form. (*)
- FINAL: After the Havan to Shri Krishna in Switzerland, 1983, Shri Mataji told me:" look, this Englishman has added wood and arranged the wood pieces of the havan after the end, so the benefits are all lost". I see this capital instruction is missing, that not only nothing more has to be offered, but one has to let the fire (i.e. Shri Agni) "work" at his pace, without any disturbance.
I read: "You have to learn certain things about faith. One of them is the protocol. If you have faith while learning the protocol, you will not feel bad. But if you're forced into it [the protocol] while the 'mixture state' is still going on, you will feel bad about it." (Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi - " Becoming " -Old Alresford, England - 18 May 1980). http://www.nirmalavidya.org/en/catalogs/events/detail/362.html
I refuse to believe that it were done on purpose.
The 80'es were years when Mother never referred to any rituals as such. On the contrary, Hindu brothers were the ones who proposed Her to perform pujas and use list of names, etc. She happily agreed with that, but always cercled them into certain limits. In this 1980 talk from which the quotation comes, the word "protocol" is related to the recognition of Shri Mataji, and the respect towards Her person, and photography, by people who did not hesitate in invading Her house, and in abusing Her money.
Those were the times.
She never meant protocol as rituals, but from the heart and recognition. I hope you will agree on this point. The proof: (**)
3-b/ The cutting of the quote has consequences.
This extract leads the reader to understand that, if he does not learn (how to follow) the (=your) protocol, he has no "real faith", and ends up being- feeling- "bad". What a threat!
- Let us be careful that the word "faith": in the West faith does not mean the same as Shraddha. It refers to "mister Paul", and the blind subservient faith of the Catholics. In a different way, in your quote, Mother refers to the faith in the fact that Realization fulfils our pure desire, in the reality, and comes from Her only -not the faith in rituals.
As an historian, trained in criticizing the texts and their interpretation, I deeply regret the way you use this quote. It sounds like a menace in the West. I hope also that this would be rectified.
I did not want to start a quote-fight,
but I feel the necessity to quote at least this one, which you can check with the link:
«But I would say that also in Sahaja Yoga I've found
there are all kinds of funny ideas growing here.
Like certain rituals they'll take up.
Then they prescribe certain rituals, they'll talk about it, and a kind of a power-orientation is there. » 1998-0621 Shri Adi Shakti Puja, Cabella http://www.nirmalavidya.org/en/catalogs/events/detail/2930.html
there are all kinds of funny ideas growing here.
Like certain rituals they'll take up.
Then they prescribe certain rituals, they'll talk about it, and a kind of a power-orientation is there. » 1998-0621 Shri Adi Shakti Puja, Cabella http://www.nirmalavidya.org/en/catalogs/events/detail/2930.html
* * *
Mister Nalgirkar, with full respect, I would not end without expressing this last concern.
Since Shri Mataji has not been in conditions to control us Her children, that is since 2003, many novelties have been introduced. I leave it to your wisdom the interpretation of thisthey prescribe just above, and whom did She refer to, at that time. |
| Shri Mataji in a church |
Anyway, most of those rites are derived from Brahmanic rituals.
I came in Sahaj in 1982 for Atmaskashatkar, for a universal religion of the Self - and meditation. I have been really happy to learn about havans, pujas, and dedication to the Devi from Mother, (that is from Herself).
From Her teachings, advices and practices, I wrote a booklet about Pujas and havans in 1987, which has been widely spread and reproduced, in French as well as in Spanish, and had received no critics since.
 |
| Shri Mataji at Nuzammuddin |
- Please do understand that I did not work hard during 30 years spreading Sahaj Yoga and VND to find it merged into Hindu rituals, which I see being accumulating year after year.
I really hope those concerns will find their way, and will enhance your vision. No use insisting on the fact that this letter carries also the surprises, disappointments, or distrusts, that are felt by many yogis and friends.
Maybe, those true devotees are just withdrawing themselves with sadness, silently, after witnessing Sahaj falling aprey to outdated ritualism.
 |
| 2015 Flooding next to the Hangar of Cabella. |
Maybe the Rain, of which I spoke in the beginning, is trying to teach us something.
Whatever, with all the due respect, and, once again, sahaj-brotherly love, let us end this letter with a big hug of our hearts.
-----------------------------------------------------
Somebody offered at the altar. He said, "What are you to offer at the altar? Have you reconciled with your brother?" Have you reconciled? First reconcile, and then bring flowers to Mother. He said it already.»
1984-1123: Shri Jesus Puja, Hounslow, UK http://www.nirmalavidya.org/en/catalogs/events/detail/1205.html
Nobody should think like that. Some people know more rituals, some know more protocol, doesn't matter, but I know who loves me.
The one who loves others loves me the most.
I don't care your protocols and your ritualistic things, are nonsense for me. What does it matter to me? The one who loves others is the one who really loves me. Take it from me!
I've had all these rituals and all that, and I have no care for these things.
Makes no difference whether you say good morning to me or good evening to me, is not important. What you say to your brothers and sisters is the most important.
"This is not good, you should not put your hand there or put your feet there or do this and that." Who can know the protocol of Divine Mother? You cannot bind Me into protocols. You cannot bind Me to anything I am unlimited.
I am detached. You cannot bind me to anything. To think that you can have me attracted towards you by your protocols, which is dead, has no meaning.
It has to be a living protocol of being kind and generous, beautiful.
Some are lethargic. [Say a husband wants the wife to work all the time. Wife wants the husband to every time. Everybody is finding faults with each other. They are not Sahaja Yogis. Sahaja Yogis are the people who take it Sahaj. »
1981-May 24: Subconscious Supraconcious, Formal Talk, Chelsham Rd, London http://www.nirmalavidya.org/en/catalogs/events/detail/543.html
-----------------------------------------------------------
FEED BACK
FROM BELGIUMBrother --- thank you very much for cleansing the clouds
of ignorance on Yagnyas of every kind. It is a shame that all
kinds of brahmanic and other rituals should be used in Sahaja
Yoga. Mother frequently warned us about such connections.
---------------------------------------------
Dear sisters,syg+shakti@
I would like to share with you this letter of an ancient French Sahaja Yoga about a different way, or a "new way" to do a havan which looks closer to an Hindu ritual than the Sahaja protocol that Shri Mataji taught us.
(It is a long letter but it is worth reading it.)
Nowadays, it seems that some Sahaja Yogis need to have new rules or just more rules; they might have the impression that it gives them more discipline. May be they want to be very respectful and add this thing, that thing, because simplicity can look like a lack of protocol for them.
We all know deep inside that Sahaj discipline comes from our subtle being and not from outside and that protocol is conduct by the heart. But sometimes, it is hard to see the difference, especially for the new people.
Please let me know what you feel about this way to conduct a havan.
Jai Shri Mataji
Lots of love,
------------Dear Shaktis,
I can't agree more with the letter of our dear brother Michel. It is very nicely written and it is supported by a solid evidence from Mother's talks. My next question though is why in the 7th edition of Mantra book page 292 we have these Hindu havan mantras?
Love,
-----------FROM AMERICA
Dear ***,
After reading your, and most! posts to shaktisangha for many year (but being unable to post for some reason), the letter from Michel below moved me to respond.
Please forward this email to him as I do not have his email id.
I would like to let him know that he has one more yogini who has the same understanding and appreciation that he has expressed in this letter. Only wishing that the same could be communicated, understood, and realized by Sahaja yogis worldwide.
Perhaps, this single note of affirmation carries little weight. If it can permeate throughout the ether into the enlightened attention of our brothers and sisters, our desire is fulfilled.
With great love and affection,
Jai Shri Mataji-!
Your sister in America,***
-------------FROM FRANCE
You made it perfectly CLEAR
....
Big hug,***
------------FROM France,
Merci - de soulever cette question ...
À noter aussi que nous n'avons plus le droit qu'à 2 havans par an à Holi et lors du Navaratri...
-------------FROM ENGLAND
Hello***!
Thank you for sharing the letter
…, whom I know since a long time.
I would say that on this point I totally agree with him: the old Sahaja Yogis have had first hand experience of the Teachings of Shri Mataji (also all recorded on tapes, DVDs etc...) which She gave very clearly with regards to performing Pujas and Havans and there is no need for anyone to 'add' or 'substract' to the rituals given by Her, which are very simple to follow and if carried on well, allow the vibrations to flow!
--------------------FROM France
PUT IT ON THE FORUM
...